tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post3541259349128332369..comments2023-09-24T08:22:14.199+01:00Comments on Joseph Shaw's Philosophy Blog: Secularism and state neutralityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-30072659923591129082011-06-24T20:25:21.529+01:002011-06-24T20:25:21.529+01:00The current crisis of the Western
State and Civili...The current crisis of the Western<br />State and Civilisation has emerged<br />from an unceasing displacement by the State of religious values and their somewhat Machievellian misuse<br />in political ideologies. Unless Christian Churches firm up their boundaries and confront secular materialism they will find themselves evacuated of any remnants of tradition they have left. Militant secularism or 'exclusive humanism' as Charles<br />Taylor calls it is rooted in the aggressive globalizing of liberal democracy (Fukuyama)the neo-colonialism that followed the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe.<br />The young people of Greece and elsewhere in Europe have begun to<br />sus the Lie as Vaclav Havel called<br />the post-Communist era (Living in the Lie)and their struggle to abandon market capitalism and its secular expansion should be joined by the Christian Churches.Robin Leslienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-88540894537742850732011-06-24T20:24:11.004+01:002011-06-24T20:24:11.004+01:00The current crisis of the Western
State and Civili...The current crisis of the Western<br />State and Civilisation has emerged<br />from an unceasing displacement by the State of religious values and their somewhat Machievellian misuse<br />in political ideologies. Unless Christian Churches firm up their boundaries and confront secular materialism they will find themselves evacuated of any remnants of tradition they have left. Militant secularism or 'exclusive humanism' as Charles<br />Taylor calls it is rooted in the aggressive globalizing of liberal democracy (Fukuyama)the neo-colonialism that followed the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe.<br />The young people of Greece and elsewhere in Europe have begun to<br />sus the Lie as Vaclav Havel called<br />the post-Communist era (Living in the Lie)and their struggle to abandon market capitalism and its secular expansion should be joined by the Christian Churches.Robin Leslienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-74514415668921725952011-06-24T20:23:50.963+01:002011-06-24T20:23:50.963+01:00The current crisis of the Western
State and Civili...The current crisis of the Western<br />State and Civilisation has emerged<br />from an unceasing displacement by the State of religious values and their somewhat Machievellian misuse<br />in political ideologies. Unless Christian Churches firm up their boundaries and confront secular materialism they will find themselves evacuated of any remnants of tradition they have left. Militant secularism or 'exclusive humanism' as Charles<br />Taylor calls it is rooted in the aggressive globalizing of liberal democracy (Fukuyama)the neo-colonialism that followed the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe.<br />The young people of Greece and elsewhere in Europe have begun to<br />sus the Lie as Vaclav Havel called<br />the post-Communist era (Living in the Lie)and their struggle to abandon market capitalism and its secular expansion should be joined by the Christian Churches.Robin Leslienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-74483039489846744852007-03-10T09:46:00.000+00:002007-03-10T09:46:00.000+00:00Aquinas reference: indeed, the quotation: ST I IIa...Aquinas reference: indeed, the quotation: ST I IIae Q.96 a.2 c.<BR/><BR/>"Now human law is framed for a number of human beings, the majority of whom are not perfect in virtue. Wherefore human laws do not forbid all vices, from which the virtuous abstain, but only the more grievous vices, from which it is possible for the majority to abstain; and chiefly those that are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder, theft and such like."<BR/><BR/>Interesting, isn't it? The main difference between this and Mill's doctrine is that there is no arbritrary restriction on what constitutes harm to others. So heresy, and living a scandalous life, would (in many circumstances) be covered.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-54570527084873037642007-01-26T15:35:00.000+00:002007-01-26T15:35:00.000+00:00I'll try to find the Aquinas reference. I don't t...I'll try to find the Aquinas reference. I don't think church-going was compulsory under Mary Tudor, but I'm not sure. What is certainly true is that people would not suffer penalties for failing to receive communion. In some ways this is the most barbaric of the Elizabethan laws, since it seeks to enforce - so far at it can be - an inward act of religion.<br /><br />More to follow on the other points.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-13657672100380003292007-01-10T19:12:00.000+00:002007-01-10T19:12:00.000+00:00Thanks for this, Joseph.
In defence of the Purita...Thanks for this, Joseph.<br /><br />In defence of the Puritans, (3) doesn't follow from (1) and (2) in your syllogism. The Puritans of course accepted (1), since they insisted that people are saved by faith, a purely mental thing that cannot be coerced by humans. I dare say that they accepted (2) as well, though I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'counter-productive' -- just that it would produce more evil by suppressing it than permitting it? But there is, first, a difference between not allowing the private practice of false religions on the one hand, and trying to make people go to church on the other, and, secondly, a difference between trying to make people go to church and trying to make people believe. <br /><br />I suspect that the Puritans reasoned that since idolatry was the worst of all sins, even worse than murder and adultery, they should try to prevent it wherever they could, however they could.<br /><br />Why do you object that criminalization of fornication and imposition of church-going are wrong? Just because they are counter-productive? I.e. you would support them in a society (the Vatican? Malta? Poland?) in which they would not be counter-productive? In what way do you think that they are actually counter-productive different from how any other imposition of morality over and above the harm principle could be argued to be counter-productive? How would their criminalization produce more evil than their permission?<br /><br />Finally, wasn't Mass-going compulsory and fornication forbidden in Roman-Catholic England, e.g. under Mary Tudor?<br /><br />Thanks for a stimulating discussion, Joseph, and could I have the Aquinas reference here too, please?Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-36631597907228664552007-01-10T13:30:00.000+00:002007-01-10T13:30:00.000+00:00There are a few sensible principles which are alwa...There are a few sensible principles which are always conceded in Catholic discussions:<br />1. You cannot force people to beleive.<br />2. The state must permit evil where the attempt to suppress would be counter-productive.<br />3. From 1 & 2: You must allow the private practice of false religions.<br /><br />Thus, for example Aquinas argues that the Jews should be left alone and sins of the mind not punished.<br /><br />Puritans in the 16th and 17th C. don't seem to have accepted these principles, which seems odd. Unfortunately their experiments with compulsory church-going and making fornication illegal have given a bad name to the 'imposition of morality in legislation'.Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082798656205665691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-64264983130721836902007-01-10T12:22:00.000+00:002007-01-10T12:22:00.000+00:00Thanks for this, Joseph.
So, in your view, how mu...Thanks for this, Joseph.<br /><br />So, in your view, how much should the law reflect morality in the ideal state? Should, for example, adultery be forbidden and attendance at church be compulsory, as was once the case in England? Should the law legislate for mental crimes too?<br /><br />In the US there is this movement called 'theonomy' or 'reconstructionism', which wishes to see nations governed by OT moral law (sometimes with OT punishments). Would you go along with that vision of an ideal society?<br /><br />I was led, reluctantly, to libertarianism from the view that it'd be impossible to have a Christian state since there is hardly any agreement among Protestants about the details of how it would work, e.g. just what kind of church service should be mandatory, what kind of work would be permitted on the Sabbath, etc. It seemed to me that the only alternative was to let each man do what seemed right in his own eyes as long as it didn't directly harm anybody unwilling.Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-18160997303009109122007-01-10T00:01:00.000+00:002007-01-10T00:01:00.000+00:00Secular libertarianism??!!
I'd start from the pri...Secular libertarianism??!!<br /><br />I'd start from the principle: the state should seek the Common Good. Then: the Common Good cannot exclude the emotional, moral and spiritual good of citizens.<br /><br />How specifically the Common Good can be defined, and the means thereto, will depend on how much agreement is politically possible. But it would be natural for a state dominated very much by one denomination to adopt that denomination's view of things. As a Catholic I would argue in favour of a Catholic interpretation; as a Thomist (insofar as I am one!) for a Thomist understanding - why not?<br /><br />The way this kind of thing was implemented was - for example, in Catholic countries - for schools and hospitals funded by the state to be handed over to religious orders to run.<br /><br />Another point, which I didn't make in my article, is what a lot of late 19th and early 20th C. papal teaching emphasised, which is that we have an obligation to worship God as a society, and so it is right to have public religious ceremonies (prayers in Parliament etc.), recognition of God in the Constitution etc.. This is what 'the social reign of Christ the King' means. See the Encyclical which announced the Feast of Christ the King in 1925, Quas Primas (Pius XI).Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082798656205665691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28278152.post-62856485370263135422007-01-09T20:17:00.000+00:002007-01-09T20:17:00.000+00:00Thanks for this, Joseph, a fascinating post.
'No:...Thanks for this, Joseph, a fascinating post.<br /><br />'No: our aim is to get the state to make decisions on the basis of what we believe to be the correct values and world view.'<br /><br />How much of your world view to you expect the state to take on: theism, Christianity, Roman Catholicism, Thomism? My own struggles with this question have led me (to my own surprise) to embrace secular libertarianism as, theocracy apart, the only coherent political system. But there must be loads on this in Thomas and the tradition . . . .Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.com